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Nullsec AFKloakers are a CCP design goal fail - needs discussion!

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Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:07:00 - [1] Originally by: Newt Rondanse DC people after half an hour of no player directed activity. No more AFK cloaky trouble. no, this will render afk cloaking not possible -> local as intel does not need a boost but a nerf certainly. Removing afk cloaking is bad as it is the last tool for mitigating local as intel.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:29:00 - [2] Originally by: OMGWTFResearch There is no need for a DC timer. A module for the destroyer that is high cost and high skill with the aspects mentioned in my previous posts will add risk to going AFK while not seriously affecting active cloakers and not affecting other activities. Also this will add a new layer of gameplay. no, even this is not required, because afking is not wrong in the first line. Stop fixing what is not broken.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:57:00 - [3] Originally by: OMGWTFResearch Adding risk to walking away while cloaking would fix the issue cloaking and walking away is not wrong or broken, nothing to fix, no issue there.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.17 16:50:00 - [4] Originally by: Newt Rondanse Originally by: Danika Princip Originally by: Newt Rondanse DC people after half an hour of no player directed activity. No more AFK cloaky trouble. Every freighter pilot in eve would like a word with you. not to mention miners, pvpers, hell, every single player in eve would get hit by this for no good reason. Flying tens of millions of isk of goods through space with the continual threat of piracy that still hasn't been stamped out successfully by CONCORD while AFK on autopilot? You're braver than I thought! there are tons of bulky things in eve which arent worth ganking but need to be moved.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.17 17:27:00 - [5] Originally by: Newt Rondanse And there is a lot of real communication between real players that is at least initiated in the local chat channel. and there is no problem right now, you may chat and afk people can do their afk jobs.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.17 17:33:00 - [6] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 17/08/2011 17:32:51 Originally by: Newt Rondanse Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Newt Rondanse And there is a lot of real communication between real players that is at least initiated in the local chat channel. and there is no problem right now, you may chat and afk people can do their afk jobs. Exactly. Local chat is not a problem, it is a necessary feature. well, you do not strictly need local to communicate. Region chat or constellation chat would suffice
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.17 17:57:00 - [7] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 17/08/2011 17:57:21 Originally by: Newt Rondanse Originally by: Robert Caldera well, you do not strictly need local to communicate. Region chat or constellation chat would suffice True, but whatever extent it covers it needs to be something that is open by default for everyone. Constellation chat is not open by default when you enter a new constellation. what?? for location independent comms there is alliance, corp, and private chats.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.17 18:03:00 - [8] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 17/08/2011 18:03:15 so if i'd allowed to exit local that would be fine for me
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.18 08:52:00 - [9] Originally by: Muzztang Here is my feeling towards this problem. [b]If I own a TCU and an IHUB in a system and have to use my hard earned isk to pay CCP for this system, I should be able to decloak an intruder in my system. no you should not. What you're saying is that every carebearish system should be absolutely safe.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.18 11:40:00 - [10] Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY - Didn't read the topic? Thats exactly what needs to be considered. AFKcloakers are farming their ISK while being safe. interesting, please would you provide me a hit how to farm ISK while afk and cloaked?? You can do this in a private message, I would even pay ISK for this information! Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY - Removing local w/o removing AFK cloaking is ridiculous, therefore please stop discussing this off-topic suggestion. afk cloaking is tied to the function of local. Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY BACK TO TOPIC please. Stop repeating claims, suggestions, off-topics and trollposts. A discussion needs - new ideas - agreeing - disagreeing (why?) - alternatives - facts & proving = not already mentioned & concerning the topic everything has been said already. Nothing broken.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.18 12:01:00 - [11] Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY Edited by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY on 18/08/2011 11:54:03 To sum up what I have read in this topic: AFK cloakers don't agree Active cloakers agree Non-cloakers agree Things which are repeatedly discussed here and nobody wants to read anymore, as they are off-topic, frequently denied or seen as not solving the discussed problem more than once: - "AFKers are no threat" (trolling or not thought about at all) - "remove local" (off-topic) - "nerf all cloaking" (cloaking is an interesting game mechanic and should be available to active cloaked players) - "group up, trap & hunt them down" (AFKers strike out of sudden nowhere, so a quick-targeting, concetratedly observing group would be required for several hours to eliminate a single ship) - "you just want to be safe and farm ISK without danger" (see "nerf all cloaking", this in fact is what AFK-cloakers do, while ruining the game experience of any active player) - add adisconnect timer (there is a lot of inactive playing in EVE and game design as based on this in certain points - autopilot, production, several highsec activities, etc.) Suggestions to reassure CCP design goals:A - Make cloaked ships detectable with a high time, technique, fitting and/or ship effort (makes them move which is no problem for active players, but AFKers) - Make cloaking module use charges (cloaking isn't endlessly possible) oh, those are really new and never brought ideas to "fix" cloak. Still wrong.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.18 12:19:00 - [12] Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY a) AFK-cloak a system three days. Then check the scans every now and then, at some point you will find some ship ratting out there. Defenseless against a counter-fittet ship, engaged by several rats. You can loot T2 stuff, minimum. Saw AFK-cloakers looting billions. If you don't know how to counterfit a ratting fitting to be out of danger, lol. yes, whats wrong with this?? Its how the game is played, basic gameplay... You could complain guns being shot deal damage but whats the point? Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY b) Errr ... no. Removing local would not do anything to AFK-cloaking, except making it easier. lol, without local there is NO POINT of afk cloaking. The whole idea of afk cloaking is to devalue locals information given to the foes by showing your name there. If there is no local, you dont need to afk cloak anymore, you could just roam through space looking for targets, which arent instantly aware of you entering a system in the easy manner it is today. Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY c) Exactly. You made your point. Please stop spamming this threat w/o new ideas. You think it's fine the way it is, I mentioned that afk-cloakers don't want any nerf (no explanation except agreeing with the momentary design given). The afk cloak whiners spam forums, so I spam their threads back.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.18 12:49:00 - [13] Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted As long as you don't see why this is exactly why it would be wrong to remove local and why ppl are complaining about AFK cloakers you will keep spewing garbage. I've just pointed out how afk cloaking is related to local, whats garbage about it?
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.18 13:13:00 - [14] Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY a) AFK-cloak a system three days. Then check the scans every now and then, at some point you will find some ship ratting out there. Defenseless against a counter-fittet ship, engaged by several rats. You can loot T2 stuff, minimum. Saw AFK-cloakers looting billions. If you don't know how to counterfit a ratting fitting to be out of danger, lol. scan system every now and then WHILE AFK?? Find a ratter WHILE AFK? Kill a ratter WHILE AFK? Scoop billions of loot WHILE AFK?
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.18 13:23:00 - [15] Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted If anything, it's not the null sec carebear wining about ppl having an effect on the game while they're not even playing, it's the cloakers wining 'we want more free kills'. what?? Who is starting those threads all the time then? And what is this stuff about "free kills"?? Last time I checked, I had to do some interaction to kill someone.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.18 13:37:00 - [16] Originally by: Newt Rondanse That's why people are complaining about AFK cloakers. They can't tell if they're really AFK. yes. Local in the current form is basically a cowbell on wolf's neck while hunting sheeps, so people circumvent it by afk cloaking. Nothing wrong with this, except of the wasted energy on all that afking. Originally by: Newt Rondanse Honestly, an AFK cloaker is just doing what all the carebears do, letting the game handle the boring bits (like fleet boosting, jumping 10 hops in a freighter, waiting for people to get lax on security) then reaping the benefits. yes, this is how it works. Unawareness and greed for ISK farming is what pushes them off the cliff. Afk cloaker take advantage of that. Originally by: Newt Rondanse This means that AFK cloaking is only an exploit if all those other activites are also. So people concerned about AFK cloaking need to either suck it up and deal with it, or accept that any real fix is going to involve impacting activities that they may be quite attached to. yes.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.19 08:54:00 - [17] Originally by: Jaru Enthil'Zha So no one should be 100% safe while in space... unless you're an afk cloaker. Got it. - you're safe in space if you are cloaked - you're safe in space in you are in a POS ) - you're safe in space when local is clear AND you are safe in eve when docked ) pls dont come up with the bulls*it of downing a POS because of a dude inside FF, until the tower dies he is either safe at another POS, logged, left the sytem or safe elsewhere. I saw more people dying due to accidental decloak than because they were trapped in a POS, being destructed.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.19 09:59:00 - [18] Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted All those other activities have a counter. Cloaking (except for bumping into those 65,4 cubic kilometers where the system is quite infinitely larger) doesn't. why are you talking about counters now, afking was the topic. But anyways, eve is full of uncounterable thigs. Can you counter my industry jobs? market orders? Can you remove my open contracts? Prevent me from undock from the station? Jumping through a gate? Gain SP! Cant counter that. Even getting you out of the POS requires that high efforts with a little chance of success killing you, that we dont need to talk about basically. Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted Now, that's ok for ppl actually playing the game (like hauling or boosting or hunting prey), but hanging somewhere invulnerable and then going AFK for hours isn't. How is afk-cloaking different to... installing an industry job for picking up the fruit in the end of process?? Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted As for being safe while docked or in a POS, ever thought about the effort it requires to actually have an outpost or a POS somewhere? Compare that to the effort it requires to fit a cloak on a frig... a POS offers a lot more than cloak. You cant mine moon minerals in value of several billions a month, re-fit ships, store all kinds of stuff there etc.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.19 10:06:00 - [19] Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY 2. POS design imho is thought of as a station without docking possibility wouldn't count this as "out in space". lol... rly? and cloak is exactly the same, designed as minipos without a FF, you cant consider a cloaked ship as in space either... Right? Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY It's an incredibly expensive safespot requiring a lot of effort to be run. and a lot of benefits, incredibly more than cloak. Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY As running it also means to have risky transports and the fact that a POS is not invulnerable and can't be used for fighting (jumping to random points in space would be equally save) makes this incomparable to the low effort of AFK-cloaking - imho. yes, its a different mechanic, for this reason you cant really compare them both, except for in their safety regards. Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY However I understand what AFK-cloakers are concerned about. Nevertheless we read a lot of comments that blame other mechanics being unbalanced and that being used as an excuse for the unbalanced endless cloaking. I dont blame any other mechanic, dont complain, just pointing out cloak is not the only which behaves in certain manners, there are other mechanics behaving similarly but thats fine. Originally by: PWNAGEROCKET ORLY "Let us farm free ISK to stop ppl from farming free ISK - because what we farm we think is worth less this is the indisputable better way". yes. Stopping income is a valid and required tactic. Go back to high sec if you dont like that, nobody forced you to 0.0.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.19 12:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Andrea Roche This also creates activity from the players as they can be killed of they forget to recloak. but the afk-cloaker probably looks from times to times if there is something, he wants to kill something pretty sure.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.20 12:40:00 - [21] Originally by: Andrea Roche Cloaking is good for grifing. And i am for grifing. I think this game would be bad without griefing. yes
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.20 14:12:00 - [22] Originally by: Andrea Roche Its not like you will not be able to recloak manually. You can recloak manually. You just have to remember to do it after a certain time. XD but I dont like the idea of not being able to afk everywhere in space when I'm cloaked. Dont like it. Space is for everyone.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.21 11:29:00 - [23] Originally by: Andrea Roche Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know. Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know. Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know. Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know. Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know. yes, but if you are afk, you cant press a button (unless using some kind of bot). Afking in space cloaked is a legit mechanic.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.21 14:32:00 - [24] Originally by: Rhinanna Basically for no effort to the cloaker it increases the risk yes, afk cloaker, cynos, hotdrops and such are part of the risk living in 0.0. Crying for a nerf of the risk is pretty ridiculous.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.21 18:20:00 - [25] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/08/2011 18:22:15 Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 21/08/2011 17:50:37 Yes I suppose I could keep a standing fleet ready literally 23 hours a day to kill a 40 million isk ship that may or may not have anyone at the keyboard that day yes Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza that seems like a legit and balanced engagement mechanic. yes Originally by: Andrea Roche Having to recloak every hour or so still allows you to hot drop or kill someone whenever the cloaker chooses. here again, fixing a "problem" which hasnt been even proven as such. Having to re-cloak gives too much information to the enemy about when the cloaker is active, doesnt work that way, they would simply hide till he drops cloak due tu inactivity, kill him and go ahead with ratting. 0.0 is not about being in full safety, even empire isnt. Originally by: Ingvar Angst Yeah, doing something insane, like, I don't know, ratting in the system next door perhaps... that's out of the question. Way too cutting edge and extreme. he's probably a renter, renting 1 system and got a cloaker in it, so ratting next door not allowed, which is the core problem of being a renter, not of the cloak being broken.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.22 09:46:00 - [26] Originally by: Draahk Chimera Devblog Quote: Solo support It is critical that some low-effort, decent-reward solo activities are available to players in nullsec. This class of content gives players a reason to stay online if nobody else is around, and it's only by getting people to stay logged on that it stops being the case that nobody else is around. how does this relate to the topic? I dont understand the last part at all.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.22 10:32:00 - [27] Originally by: Draahk Chimera The development plan for 0.0 includes a point that states that solo-pve should be available. With cloakers in local who may or may not be afk and who may or may not have a covert cyno I fitted, and you have no way of telling, your choices are rather limited (read: Empire mission alt). And no, simply stating that attacking you is not an AFK activity is neither funny or relevant as you have no way of telling when he gets back from work/dinner/shagging boyfriend. If there was a ping on my d-scan when the cloaker sat down in front of his computer I would be with you. mh, the plan of having solo pve activities doesnt mean at all you should be protected from any kind of pvp, that is a stretch way too far IMO.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.22 10:54:00 - [28] Originally by: Draahk Chimera Who said anything about "any kind of pvp"? I thought we where talking about cloakers? There are still scramming rat frigs, ceptor pilots with godlike d-scan skills, ceptor-spammig the belts and so on. Hell, you can even camp my local with a bunch of frigs and dictors if you like. What I am against is the person who locks down a system with a cloaking ship then isnt even at the computer for hours then out of the blue attack someone in the belts as there is no defence at all from this behaviour. To make one thing clear, I have empire mission alts so I'm not bitter. I make money just fine. I just think the whole consept of "afk cloakers" goes against the design of the game thats all. I just pointed out the relation between the quoted devblog and the afk cloaker discussion is a huge stretch.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.22 13:19:00 - [29] Originally by: Andrea Roche My point is inactivity needs to be punished and activity rewarded. Therefore cloak needs a timer nerf. eve is full of afk jobs (think of skill training for instance), afk cloak is just one of them. Get used to that.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.22 13:40:00 - [30] Originally by: Andrea Roche i could also say that super caps can be killed and dont need a nerf. Just bring 3/5 carriers with neuts. But i will be ignoring the problem or message... this is that far away from the actual topic, I dont know what to reply on this one.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.22 16:34:00 - [31] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/08/2011 16:34:49 Originally by: Neurotica make cloak not a passive module, adjust accordingly. here again. WHY? Afk cloaking hasnt been concluded or proved as wrong until yet, some people complain about being unsafe in 0.0 space due to cloakers but thats all, by far not enough to change anything. There is a lack of reasoning and nothing really to fix yet.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.22 23:26:00 - [32] Originally by: Andrea Roche Its not hard to manually click recloak Its not hard to manually click recloak Its not hard to manually click recloak Its not hard to manually click recloak Its not hard to manually click recloak I dont want to manually recloak all the time. I dont want to manually recloak all the time. I dont want to manually recloak all the time. I dont want to manually recloak all the time. I dont want to manually recloak all the time.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.23 11:08:00 - [33] Originally by: Andrea Roche Edited by: Andrea Roche on 23/08/2011 10:59:52 Well eitherway, its very likelly they will remove local therefore cloak will not be permanent XD. So you all will have to leanr to click to recloak again mmmuuuuaaaahaaaahhaa you still didnt get it?? If local is "removed", there would be no point of being logged in while afk.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.08.23 13:46:00 - [34] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 23/08/2011 13:46:40 Originally by: Andrea Roche I understand here you are going with this. You do have a valid point but. What about looking at it from the other perspective that lets say you want to jump a ratter (tyical rating system), so you afk cloak until the right time to get ratter lets say 4 hours from cloaking time. Then you spot the right momment and you jump a ratter or cyno on top of him. Do you still think people will not do afk ratting, specially on a well known ratting system and when you can now go undetected in local?? Do you think this would be a valid argument? Wouldnt detection of a covert cyno be even harder to spot if you cant even see him in local? Do you think this may happen and is also a valid argument? again, if you are AFK(!), i.e. not scanning for ratters, flying around, looking at the gate, opening cynos on top of someone but are away from keyboard, there would be absolutely no point of staying logged in! Even if you are at the keyboard but there are no targets around you could simply log off and mess around with the other 2 chars on the same account or play a different game at all, since NOONE WOULD REGISTER YOUR AFK ABSENSE THERE ANYMORE without local!

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